Prime Minister, thanks for joining us here once again at this very special site.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: It’s a pretty wonderful part of Australia, isn’t it?
HOST: It certainly is. Look, after that referendum defeat, you wanted to listen and consult. Some of those here reckon that’s turned into a long, deafening silence. So, what is your plan now for Indigenous Australians?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the reception that we’ve had here has been really positive. And the theme here at Garma, underneath the lectern, says: Fire. Strength. Renewal. Out of the fire that was lit at Uluru in 2017, it wasn’t successful. So, we haven’t come here to go through the ashes, if you like. Out of, after a fire, comes rain and comes new shoots, renewal. And that is one of the themes of this, it was a theme of Djawa’s speech here, the Leader of the Yolngu people. And it was about economic empowerment – was the theme of my speech. How do we close the gap? How do we empower First Nations people so that they get the opportunities that other Australians have? And we see the changes in the global economy, the changes in what Australia is doing, which is heading to the north, whether it be defence and security investment, the investment in critical minerals, the investment in renewable energy, as all presenting an opportunity to go forward.
HOST: And I want to come to some of that. But it does sound like you’re still searching for the right pathway forward after the referendum. How do you go about that process? Who do you consult? How long does this take?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we’ve been consulting and of course, there are existing bodies like the Coalition of Peaks that we’re continuing to work with on those objectives, led by Pat Turner –
HOST: Is that your main source of advice?
PRIME MINISTER: No. Our doors are open to all sources of advice. And one of the great privileges of coming here is that this is a forum that is about a celebration of culture, but it’s also about a celebration of knowledge and the wisdom that comes from 60,000 years of care for this land and country.
HOST: You did say on election night that you were committed to the Uluru Statement in full. That’s Voice, Truth-telling and Treaty. I do think it’s important to clear this up after the referendum defeat. Where does that commitment now stand?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it hasn’t changed in terms of Treaty as being negotiated through states and territories. That’s at different stages, and that is appropriate, given that there are different views and it is not one homogeneous grouping around the country.
HOST: So, no national treaties?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that hasn’t changed since the referendum. We weren’t progressing a national treaty before the referendum. What was occurring was that states and territories were acting on that. And with regard to Makarrata, a Yolngu word that simply means, a coming together after struggle, I’m somewhat perplexed at why people see that as being complex. Obviously, there has been a struggle for First Nations people. That’s why we talk about closing the gap, or what is really a chasm in some areas. And coming together is a principle of walking together. That engagement. It’s not a moment in time. It’s a process of coming together after struggle.
HOST: So, what does that process look like? Because talking to people here, it might mean different things to what you’re suggesting. What do you actually mean by this Makarrata process?
PRIME MINISTER: What it means is, this is happening. This is a coming together of people through engagement. The forums that are held different bodies, including the body led by Pat Turner, made up of a Coalition of Peaks. It means engaging with Land Councils. It means engaging with Native Title Tribunals. It means engaging with First Nations people right around the country. There are different needs depending upon whether people are in urban communities, like my electorate. The needs of people in Marrickville, that has a sizeable First Nations population, is very different from here of the Gumatj clan of the Yolngu people.
HOST: One of the architects of the Uluru Statement, Pat Anderson, says that you should be embarking on a Truth and Justice Commission. Are you saying it’s not that? That’s not what you’re going to do?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that’s not what we have proposed. What we’ve proposed is Makarrata just being the, the idea of coming together –
HOST: So, it’s talking to Land Councils, talking to –
PRIME MINISTER: That’s what we want to do. Well, engaging. Being here is a starting point. I think it’s disappointing that the other political parties aren’t here.
HOST: Well, indeed, Peter Dutton says that if he’s in Government, there will be no Makarrata, there will be no Truth-telling. So, if you are re-elected, when you say there will be Makarrata, you’re talking about simply as Prime Minister engaging with different Indigenous groups?
PRIME MINISTER: Ongoing engagement is what we do, of coming together. Now that might take forms as it evolves –
HOST: What does that mean?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what it means is, I don’t pre-empt it. What it means is listening to and respecting First Nations people and then responding. We know that what we’ve been doing up to now, where more than half or more than two thirds, tragically, of the Closing the Gap targets currently aren’t on track to being met. So, we can’t just do things the same way. And part of that, of course involves – must involve – listing the people who are directly affected.
HOST: What about acknowledging past wrongs, though? Here at Garma, the Northern Territory Police Commissioner has issued an apology for past injustices and hurt by the police service here. Is that the sort of thing that fits with what you’re talking about as part of Makarrata?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely it does.
HOST: So, you would encourage more of this –
PRIME MINISTER: That’s a good thing. Of course. Who’s against – I’m not quite sure how Peter Dutton justifies saying he’s against Truth-telling, telling the truth about history, or against people coming together in dialogue.
HOST: So, would you encourage other police commissioners to do this?
PRIME MINISTER: One of the things – well, it’s up to them. But in general, it’s a good idea to acknowledge history and to acknowledge that why we are here today is because of that history. It’s because of the incarceration rates. And you can’t say that there’s some inherent reason why that is the case, that there’s some reason why First Nations people are more likely – obviously, it is because of the circumstances of their birth, because of the economic conditions which are there. Which is why in so many areas one of the things that I want to do as well is to celebrate the successes. We need to be optimistic if we’re going to move forward. And here, the educational attainment that is happening here with Yolngu people, with higher retention rates, people going on to tertiary education. I met a young woman yesterday who’s studying law at Melbourne University. We need to celebrate that.
HOST: Understand. And there is progress to celebrate. But too often, coming to the Closing the Gap issues, there’s just not enough progress. The latest figures do show that only five of 19 targets are on track to be met. Four areas are still going backwards, getting worse, suicide rates, incarceration, kids going into out of home care. Do you understand why that’s happening?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there has to be structural reasons why that’s the case. You have inter-generational disadvantage. If you have people born into an existence which doesn’t have a secure roof over their head, that doesn’t have access to education, that has different health outcomes as well. The rates of so many diseases are so much higher in Indigenous communities, then that is because of structures which are there, which is why we sought to listen to the request from Indigenous Australians –
HOST: So, now what do you do?
PRIME MINISTER: We accept the outcome. Well, we continue to listen, not through a Voice to Parliament. We accept the outcome, but we continue to work. We have, since that, announced the replacement of the CDP, that was essentially a Work for the Dole, a make work program. We’ve replaced that with the Remote Community and Economic Development program. So, real jobs with real training, with real wages and conditions. So, that’s part of it. $4 billion into remote housing.
HOST: I’ll come to that as well. The argument for the Voice from you and your Ministers was that it would deliver better practical outcomes. I mean, your Health Minister said it would reduce suicide rates, for example. Do you need some other type of body, advisory body, that can do what you were talking about, even if it’s not in the Constitution?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we’re listening to the Coalition of Peaks and we’re engaging with organisations as well, right around the country. We have a new Indigenous Affairs Minister, Malarndirri McCarthy, who comes from this part of the world in Arnhem Land. We have continued to engage and we will continue to listen. It has to be part of it.
HOST: But you don’t need a new body?
PRIME MINISTER: Change can’t be – well, we accept the outcome of the Referendum. So what we need to do is to work on ways which do make a practical difference. The Voice was never the end in itself. The Voice was the means to close the gap by listening to people. And the Uluru Statement from the Heart made that very clear.
HOST: And you’re now saying you can do that with the existing bodies?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we’re saying we weren’t successful. So, what we need to do is to not challenge what was a democratic outcome. I’ve accepted responsibility. We have accepted the outcome as well.
HOST: But that was about putting it in the Constitution. You could still have an advisory body.
PRIME MINISTER: We put it to – it was about putting Indigenous recognition in the Constitution in the form which was asked for through the First Nations Constitutional Convention in 2017 at Uluru, after a process that was begun by Tony Abbott and which people participated in. Now, that wasn’t successful. So, what we can’t do is say: oh, well, we’ll just give up on Closing the Gap, we’ll give up on moving Australia forward. What we will do is renew through working with existing bodies. There are Land Councils, there are organisations such as the Yothu Yindi Foundation here, but others as well, right around the country that we are continuing to work with. Pat Turner and the Coalition of Peaks recently addressed my entire Cabinet and will continue to work because the existing status quo is simply not acceptable.
HOST: So, just on that, I mean, the Productivity Commission in the latest Closing the Gap figures again makes the point that shared decision making is what’s needed to really make it. Where that’s happening, you’re seeing better results, but it’s just not happening enough, this sort of tokenistic talk about shared decision making. Even here one of the Elders I spoke to has said that it’s just not happening here on the ground. Are you willing to do more to share decision making?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, we certainly are. And one of the things that I’ve spoken about here is through economic empowerment, having a body that can coordinate that activity. Just as to drive investment in other parts of our economy we’re setting up a single door where international investors can go to. What we’ve said is we want a one stop shop, if you like, where business can go, can work with the more than 270 Native Title bodies which are there. So that investment from the very beginning in communities, in economic development that will create wealth and jobs and economic prosperity for these communities involves First Nations people from the very beginning. That’s really important.
HOST: To those companies who will get government subsidies or tax breaks under your Future Made in Australia plan. Are you willing to say: ok, you’ve got to – there’s a mandated requirement for Indigenous employment or co-ownership?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we have in the Future Made in Australia legislation that’s before the Parliament, is a community engagement measure, so that we want communities to be engaged when investment is happening, to make sure that you’ll get better outcomes. It’s no different, this principle from the general things that most Australians would take for granted, that, if something was happening in the community in which they live, there will be a consultation process.
HOST: That’s engagement. But I’m asking whether you’d be willing to say there’s a mandated requirement. You’re getting government help. You’ve got to employ a certain number of Indigenous workers.
PRIME MINISTER: One of the things that I find, David, here, including from the many businesses who are here, is they’re engaged, they’re up for it. And whether it’s companies –
HOST: Not everywhere. I mean, this is a particular example where it has worked, but not everywhere.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, where there are companies like Rio Tinto and Fortescue and others have employed significant numbers of Indigenous Australians and are ensuring that they get training and opportunities. It’s part of that social contract that they have. I mean, the resources that exist below our lands are owned by the Australian people, and therefore there’s an obligation to leave the entire nation better. And part of that has to be engaging with First Nations people. And by and large, what I find is the private sector has been very prepared to engage. And that goes not just for large businesses as well, but the opportunities that are there for small businesses to grow. One of the things we want to do is to increase home ownership for First Nations people as well. And they’re the sort of programs that we’re working on.
HOST: On housing, you have committed money to Northern Territory remote housing, along with the Territory Government. What about remote housing in the states? WA, Queensland, South Australia. Will the Commonwealth fund that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we’re already funding through our $32 billion ³Ô¹ÏÍøÕ¾s for Australia plan. Some of that will go to social housing, which will be for Indigenous Australians in areas like the Housing Australia Future Fund.
HOST: But I’m talking about specific remote housing funding.
PRIME MINISTER: That will be delivered through states and territories through our Housing and ³Ô¹ÏÍøÕ¾lessness Agreement as well, has specific provision in there to make sure that we’re delivering. The Northern Territory, here, in terms of remote communities, has an acute issue of shortage. And the Northern Territory, unlike the wealth that, frankly, has been created in Western Australia and Queensland, the Northern Territory Government’s fiscal position means that there’s a need for the Federal Government to step up across a range of areas, and that is what we have done.
HOST: Just generally with housing in terms of reaching your overall target for the nation. One of the problems we’re seeing is not enough workers in residential housing construction. Building costs are huge, they’re driving inflation. A lot of workers are perhaps understandably, taking bigger pay on big infrastructure projects. What do you say to the idea that maybe there needs to be a pause on some of those big infrastructure projects so more homes can be built?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you don’t pause an infrastructure project that’s underway. That’s a recipe for making sure that the costs –
HOST: But they’re still on the books, still on the table?
PRIME MINISTER: – that’s making sure costs are considerably increased. What you will have in places like New South Wales, a range of the projects are reaching conclusion. Infrastructure is important for our growing communities. We need to make sure that we train and skill up more Australians, which is why we have our plan for Fee Free TAFE, why we’ve got specific plans in construction that we announced in the Budget as well, to train Australians for those jobs. And why as well, we’re re-engineering the migration program to make sure that it prioritises those areas of skills shortage.
HOST: Finally, just coming back to what you’ve been talking about here this weekend, you did in your speech talk about Australia, you imagined an Australia that’s more unified, more reconciled, more confident, more equal. Do you honestly think Indigenous Australians are more reconciled and more unified than they were before the referendum? Because speaking to some people here, I’ve had women tell me that the racism that they experienced that was brought up during the referendum really hasn’t gone away. Do you think we are a more unified, more reconciled Australia now?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there has to be the objective to achieve that. And what I think is that we need to be optimistic about how we look forward. And one of the things that was, I think, a key of Djawa’s speech here this morning was that sense of optimism. And when I’ve met with the youth group here this morning as well, what I see is young people who are optimistic about Australia’s future and are optimistic about their place in it. There is no doubt that there was considerable hurt, not just by the outcome, but by some of the way that the campaign was conducted. And that is just a reality. And people’s feelings are still raw and emotional, which is why you didn’t wake up the next day and say: okay, now here’s what we’re doing. These issues take time to work their way through the system.
HOST: How long?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we are – a theme of the first Garma after the Referendum, we have had a $20 million announcement today for tertiary education here on Country, following on from the successful schools program. We have successful employment programs replacing the old CDP. We have record funding for remote housing. We have improvements and programs in health, including dialysis support in remote parts of Australia.
HOST: This reconciled, unified Australia would take some time?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course it’s a process of reconciliation, but what is important is that we walk together. One of the things that is a theme of this, is renewal and is a theme of walking together. Recognising that this isn’t just an issue, from my perspective, about Indigenous Australians. It is about closing the gap for them, but in my view, has always been that Australia as a nation will benefit from being more united, from more reconciled with our history, and that that’s important for all of us, but it’s also important for how Australia is seen in the region and the world.
HOST: Prime Minister, thanks for joining us here at Gama.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, David.
