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TOM CONNELL, HOST: The Opposition Leader Peter Dutton is promising to abolish the role of Ambassador for First Nations peoples, if he becomes Prime Minister. The Daily Telegraph reports the Federal Government approved more than $350,000 to send its Ambassador to 9 overseas trips in the past financial year, the position is currently held by Justin Mohamed. Mr Dutton called the role a waste of taxpayer money. Joining me live now, Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy. Thanks for your time.

MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Thank you.

TOM CONNELL: What do you make of that? Would you justify the money? How does that help First Nations people; the money currently spent?

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: We’re certainly very pleased to have Ambassador Mohamed travelling the world, in terms of helping First Nations businesses and trade internationally. We have incredible business opportunities that he’s been able to work with, but also with our Pacific neighbours, Tom. One of the things that our country does is obviously assist in Fiji, Papua New Guinea, in Vanuatu. So, working with, at that level, from First Nations to Indigenous people in those areas, has also been important, and I’ve had that opportunity to meet with them as well.

TOM CONNELL: Is there an example of businesses that have got overseas contracts or deals purely because of that role?

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Not so much because of that role, because the role is still relatively new. It did come in, you know, over the last twelve to 18 months, in terms of Ambassador Mohamed. We saw it as a policy that we took in terms of coming to government. We felt that the work that’s being done with tourism in the Indigenous sector, with the art world, the fact that our art is sold right across the world, that we do need someone at the forefront who can continually advocate for First Nations people –

TOM CONNELL: So, that would have to be the hope, though, you can eventually point to, here that – whatever it might be – contract, deal, this happened because of this role and that makes it worthwhile because, you know, taxpayer money, it’s a scarce product.

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Look, I’m very conscious that cost of living is at the forefront for all Australians, but I’m also mindful that we do have diplomats and ambassadors who do still represent our country throughout crises, like, you know, in terms of cost of living, and Ambassador Mohamed is doing the same for First Nations businesses across the world.

TOM CONNELL: You come into this role at a very interesting time, of course. The Voice Referendum defeated not so long ago. Is this up to you now to just decide policies on Closing the Gap? And if so, how do you do that? This is a huge job, isn’t it?

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Well, we are coming up to the one year anniversary, Tom, and I’m very aware of that in terms of the referendum. And when I came into the role just in the last two months, it is about looking at the status quo in terms of the national agreement that was signed by the previous Prime Minister, Scott Morrison and Ken Wyatt as Indigenous Australians Minister, and looking at how we can improve on that. Clearly, that national agreement, which involves all the states and territories, involves both sides of politics, we have to make a difference. It’s what the Australian people said when they voted no to the referendum, they believe the status quo should remain. So, we have to make that better and work on accords like the Closing the Gap.

TOM CONNELL: And you’ve spoken about wanting to work with people. What I think was interesting about The Voice was there was you advocating for it, Jacinta Nampijinpa Price advocating against it, both fierce advocates for First Nations people, I think you’d agree. You know, both know a lot about it, traditional landowners as well, landholders as well. Do you think you can actually find common ground with her though, because you want the same outcome, but it seems like very different principles? Have you met with her? Is there much you have in common on how to do it?

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Look, I’ve certainly met with Senator Nampijinpa Price and also with other senators from different parties and in the lower house as well, with regards to the Teals and the Greens. It’s important that there will always be differences, you know, in politics. But I do believe around Closing the Gap, this is an area that all states and territories and all sides of politics agreed to, and I’m trying to get us back on track –

TOM CONNELL: And in terms of policies on that, because it was a time when advocates for First Australians, in some circumstances were on total opposite sides. Do you feel like there is more common ground than we realised? Would you imagine a joint press conference with Senator Nampijinpa Price, saying here’s a policy we agree on, this will be a good idea if the states should get on board?

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Well, there is a policy, and that’s Closing the Gap.

TOM CONNELL: But, I mean, policies to do that.

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Ok, so, for example, in Closing the Gap, if we look at the Justice Reinvestment, if we look at housing, for example, in the Northern Territory, we see the now CLP Government there. There is a joint $4 billion program for regional remote housing that has to be seen as surely common ground to improve the houses for First Nations people, certainly in that part of the country.

TOM CONNELL: So, you think there’s more bipartisanship than meets the eye, almost, in this area?

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: I do believe that we can find that. I do believe that the interests of First Nations people is at the heart of this, in trying to improve peoples’ lives and health and wellbeing, but also job opportunities across the economy.

TOM CONNELL: Sometimes some of these issues get a lot of public attention, all of a sudden, and I’m sure for people like you, it might-

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: I think they get a lot of attention all the time, it’s not so much sudden, I think Tom.

TOM CONNELL: But, I mean, issues like youth crime in Alice Springs was an interesting one, because suddenly everyone has an opinion and, you know, every breakfast show is talking about it. Speaking to a lot of different groups about this on the program, some were really strong on saying authorities are too reluctant now to remove children from parents that are not giving them the best start in life. And others are saying, no, it’s lack of support. It’s different. They seem to have contrasting views. What’s your view on that specific issue?

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Sure. Well, it always does come back to each state and territory. You know, the care of children, whether it’s policing, all of those areas, comes back firstly to the jurisdiction that you’re working with. Obviously in the Northern Territory, they do require further Commonwealth assistance and that’s why – excuse me, Tom, I think I might need some water –

TOM CONNELL: That’s okay. Take a moment if you need to.

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: That’s why they had the $250 million for the Northern Territory. Excuse me, I might need some water if there’s someone who can bring some –

TOM CONNELL: I’ve got some, but I’ve been drinking out of it. I don’t want to do that to you because I’m at the end of something, too.

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Oh, yeah, I can hear it. Maybe that’s what I’ve got.

TOM CONNELL: All right. I can see people scrambling. But is that – I mean, on that principle, I understand that things are up to states, but when that sort of issue really bubbles up and it’s really big in the national spotlight, you get those contrasting views around, you know, is it that we’re too reluctant as a country and there’s obviously cultural issues for that reason.

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Oh, look, what I think in the first instance is, is that, and I’ve said this nationally, say, for example, around – thank you very much.

TOM CONNELL: Here’s a water coming to save you.

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: In the national interest in terms of raising the age, in terms of criminal activity, we see that in the Northern Territory, the CLP will reduce that. I’ve certainly written to the Chief Minister and mentioned it, that it would be important to think very carefully about that. Each jurisdiction has to make their own decisions, but at that Commonwealth level, we are mindful that the care and protection of children is everyone’s responsibility.

TOM CONNELL: Ok, have a big sip of that water. I’ll ask a nice long-winded question for you. The other interesting thing around employment, and this is where the rubber can sort of hit the road because everyone wants to Close the Gap. But when it comes to land, for example, and often there’s mining proposals and you have some traditional landowners saying, part of this is a sacred site. This element is, we don’t want to destroy this, and others saying the best thing for our people now is the jobs this will bring. Is that tension being managed properly at the moment, do you think?

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Well, again, we have to work with the states and territories. Each jurisdiction, again, has their own laws. New South Wales has its own Aboriginal Land Rights Act. The Northern Territory doesn’t. It comes under the Commonwealth, so we have a different participation in the role of the Northern Territory. If you’re talking about the cultural heritage and protection, we only have to look at what happened at Juukan Gorge in Western Australia, which has caused serious ramifications in terms of legislation federally. So, there will always be an awareness of working with each of those jurisdictions –

TOM CONNELL: Okay. Would it be too hard for you to sort of get everyone together and have common rules?

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: It’s never too hard to do that. I think the reality is that pieces of legislation are what we are guided by legally, and the states and territories don’t necessarily have universal legislation on all these areas.

TOM CONNELL: And, given the complexity and the issues you’re talking about, something universal might be hard, but harmony as much as possible would be good.

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: My role as First Nations or Indigenous Minister is to actually reach out all the time, you know, whatever the situation and whatever the controversy.

TOM CONNELL: Appreciate your time. We’ll leave it there. You can have a sip of water.

MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Thankyou.