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GREG JENNETT, HOST: Patrick Gorman welcome back to the studio. One-on-one today, which is always nice. Now, Simon Crean is a generation or two apart from you, but he did maintain his connections with the current Labor mob. Also in a former life, you were in Kevin Rudd’s office. Difficult times, I guess, could I get you to reflect on those contacts? How did you find your dealings with Simon Crean?

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE: Well, I think, like everyone in this building and the Labor Party and the labour movement more broadly, I’m still coming to terms with this news that Simon’s no longer with us. I mean, he was the leader of The Labor Party when I joined The Labor Party and joined Young Labor, so he’s been part of my entire journey through this party and Australian politics. Yeah, I first met him when I came here as a staff member. I’ve known him for a number of years. And actually, it was just last month I was talking to him at the European Australian Business Council, where he was hosting an event here in Parliament House. So, he’s maintained his passion and interest for public policy throughout his life. And I think one of the things that’s been touching is to see how many people he influenced one way or another.

JENNETT: That’s certainly true. When it came to your own membership of the ALP, was that driven by any particular direction that he was taking the party in, or particular decisions that he was making obviously, the Iraq War was pretty central to things?

GORMAN: I joined a little bit before that very critical moment in his leadership, but obviously it was something that made me proud to be a Labor Party member, seeing him be so principled, which he was so often throughout his career. And I think the other thing that sort of has reminded me of the influence he had on Australian politics and Australia more broadly, is just what a great mentor he was for so many. I saw the tributes from Claire O’Neil and Josh Burns as some of my colleagues now. We saw the tribute from Kevin Rudd, who noted that it was Simon that put him in the role as Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs. He’s made a huge impact.

JENNETT: Just reflecting on that time, which was difficult for all involved. He was torn, I think, by the situation that Labor found itself in in the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd years. I imagine, because he’d given his adult life to the party. Was that your observation? I know some people would say his behaviour might have been a bit erratic towards the end, but how keenly do you think he was feeling that torment at the time?

GORMAN: I think what we’ve seen, whether it be that particular moment or any moment throughout his political career, he always had the interests of the Australian Labor Party and working Australians at his absolute heart. And that’s why there are so many warm tributes to him today. And there’ll be more to come with a state funeral in the coming weeks.

JENNETT: And well deserved. Patrick Gorman, why don’t we move on to voice opinion polls? YouGov and Newspoll are among the latest to show the downward trend continues for the Yes vote. What needs to change to arrest that decline?

GORMAN: Well, what we know is that the vote is not happening today, it’s not happening this month, it’s not happening next month. We’ve got to wait the two months and 33 days. So, there’s going to be a lot more conversation. And I’m very confident, as the Prime Minister is, as the entire Government is, that when Australians actually do find themselves in a few months time making that decision, that we will see the generosity of Australian spirit get this Constitutional change up.

JENNETT: So, is this downward trend, then, best explained by ignorance and a lack of understanding? You seem to be suggesting that as people engage, so will levels of support for the Yes vote. What does that say about current levels of understanding that may be driving this decline?

GORMAN: Well, I wouldn’t say that it’s ignorance. I’d say that people respond to those surveys from time to time, honestly. But we are quite a few months away from people actually making this decision. And I’m not going to lie, it has been an interesting debate over the last sort of few days. We saw Peter Dutton, who voted for this vote to happen, then saying that the vote shouldn’t happen. I mean, that’s confused people who are saying, well, ‘if you’re saying the vote should happen, why are you saying it now shouldn’t?’

JENNETT: But why will that pass? Why won’t those sorts of arguments become permanent features?

GORMAN: We are going to see all of those arguments put forward. We’ve seen the No campaign go quite hard with some of the, in my view, misinformation. But I think, where are we going to be when people are actually walking in to vote in the referendum? They will have received so much campaigning from both sides, they’ll have access to all the information, most of which is already out there, from the Explanatory Memorandum to the actual amendments to the Constitution. And I’m really confident that when they finally get the chance to make that choice, they will choose to fulfil the request of the Uluṟu Statement from the Heart, which is constitutional recognition.

JENNETT: We’ll track that through with you, undoubtedly, in the weeks and months ahead. Just finally, with your public service responsibilities. Patrick Gorman PwC is restructuring itself. Spinning off or hiving off an entity that will work with Government. Have you any understanding of how that will work? Is this just PwC in new garb, this spun-off entity? Does it change anything from your point of view?

GORMAN: Well, we’ve seen the announcement from PwC. Obviously, there’s a lot of the details of their internal restructuring to come, including their – as the words you use – spin-off. What’s important for

us is that we’re responsible for government contracting. We will continue to strengthen those guidelines, which we have already done. What’s important to us is we see what comes from the Treasury referral to the Australian Federal Police. What’s important for us is that we continue to invest in our public service. That’s the body, that’s the people that we rely on more than any other to fulfil the objectives of Government. So, that’s where we’ll put our focus. And I’ll say to PwC and any other consultancy firm who’s pitching for government work that they should look really clearly at the Australian Public Service Code of Conduct because that gives you a pretty good idea of the high ethical standards that we expect from anyone who does work with Government.

JENNETT: And these are things that you’re moving to legislate as well. Patrick Gorman will wrap it up there and talk again soon.