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TOM CONNELL, HOST: Joining me now, regular panellists, Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister Patrick Gorman and former Liberal MP and New South Wales party president Jason Falinski. Pat, just starting with you on this, what do you think of the actual members, the workers that are sending this message to Labor? Presumably that they think the CFMEU is a really well-run union, and it should keep going as it is?

PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: Well, my message Tom, to all of those members of that union is that we want to make sure they get good representation at work and good safe workplaces. That’s why we’ve put an administrator in place because the people who were running that union up until we took this action, were doing all sorts of things other than what is the core business of being a union. We saw journalists reveal some shocking activity happening with members money and within those unions that should never have been happening. We had to take action, because I think every worker deserves the right to join a union, but that union should be focused on giving people good pay, good conditions, and particularly when it comes to important industries like construction, you should be focused on actually making sure people get home safely every day. I can’t believe that some of the things we saw with the CFMEU, where they had officials doing all sorts of support for causes, interesting bikie links and all the rest –

CONNELL: But all these workers are going hands off Labor. We like our union just the way it is.

GORMAN: Well, again, my message to those workers is that we want trade unions focused on the business of trade unions, not on the business of bikies. That’s why we took action to clean this up. This protest hasn’t changed my mind at all. Some of the pretty disappointing behaviour we’ve seen at these protests has just confirmed that we’re taking exactly the right course of action.

CONNELL: Okay, Jason, to you – well, welcome back first of all, it’s been a little while with sitting weeks and pesky additions like that, so we thought we’d roll it out on a Tuesday – Any credit for Labor? Once this came out in the media, Jason, they’ve agreed to amendments by the Coalition. The union is into administration. It’s, you know, they’ve taken the action. Basically, the coalition said they should have.

JASON FALINSKI, FORMER NSW LIBERAL PARTY PRESIDENT: Tom, this is so farcical. It’s a pantomime. I mean, let’s not forget how we got to this situation. The Labor Party abolished the Building Construction Commission, which was keeping all of these bikies and these unlawful gangs at bay, but they allowed it, they facilitated it, and then they’re surprised to see that it happened. We’ve had umpteen royal commissions into the building unions, going back to Bob Hawke when he deregistered the BLF. The workers of the CFMEU know exactly what everyone else should know, which is, this isn’t about cleaning up the CFMEU. This is about a takeover by a handpicked barrister, who’s got a very strong relationship with Mark Dreyfus. It’s got absolutely nothing to do with cleaning up the building sector whatsoever.

CONNELL: You said the ABCC was keeping these issues at bay. These issues were happening, including during the time of the ABCC.

GORMAN: That’s right.

FALINSKI: That’s right, Tom, and they were getting investigated, and they were being prosecuted by the ABCC, which was keeping them in line. Then the Labor Party appointed Anna Booth, the Fair Work Ombudsman –

CONNELL: These were happening during the time of the ABCC.

FALINSKI: Tom, I think you’re getting confused between keeping them at bay and eliminating the problem. It didn’t stop the problem, but you had a tough cop on the beat making sure that it didn’t get out of hand. The minute it was abolished, it got out of hand. The Labor Party appointed Anna Booth as the Fair Work Ombudsman, who then abandoned most of the prosecutions that the ABCC started, including one that was ready to be – where the judge was about to hand down a decision – which he then went to the unprecedented step of actually handing down that decision, indicating that there were member’s of the union that would have been fined tens of thousands of dollars for their unlawful behaviour. And we are surprised to see, we are surprised to see that the CFMEU thought there was, you know, the cat was away, so the mice shall play. And then we have this sort of shock horror. We need to put them into administration. And the person we’re going to put in, in charge of this is someone that has a strong relationship with the Labor unions, with the Labor Party, and I don’t think that we’ll see any reform here whatsoever, and the workers of the CFMEU know that, and that’s why they’re protesting.

CONNELL: Caps on international students announced today. Patrick Gorman, in terms of what you’re trying to achieve here, we’ll see reaction to the Group of Eight, but unis are saying they’re going to struggle to manage this situation, having fewer international students. But what’s your message to them? Do they just need to try a bit harder? Or do you have some sympathy?

GORMAN: Well, my message is that we are, if you look at what Minister Jason Clare’s put out today, we are just going back to sort of the average enrolments that we saw back in 2019, before the pandemic. Back then international education was a huge export, $37 billion, we want to make sure that it’s a sustainable industry, and that some of those benefits of international students aren’t just concentrated in the CBD, but they go out to the regions as well, because that’s a good thing for international students. It’s a good thing for the regional economies. And it’s also about making sure our higher education system is sustainable. We’ve seen it absorb a lot of pressure and put pressure on housing, we know that. I think it’s pretty reasonable that universities do build some housing when they’re building or taking in new students. I’m seeing that in my electorate. I’ve got the Edith Cowan University city campus in the Perth CBD. They are building accommodation next door. That’s the model of the future. That’s what I want to back. And I’m pretty sure that these very smart Vice Chancellors can find it themselves to find those smart solutions for student housing for both domestic and international students.

CONNELL: Jason, presumably the Coalition will go a lot further, because the numbers they’re pledging to cut on immigration overall are so much more severe. So, this doesn’t go far enough?

FALINSKI: Tom, I’m kind of with Patrick on this. I mean, the fact of the matter is that the Vice Chancellors, as you will remember, Tom, spent years and years telling the Australian public that they weren’t reliant on overseas students, and they weren’t using overseas students to raise revenue and now it turns out that they were. I think, as a class of administrators, many of these Vice Chancellors really need to have a look at themselves. And I mean, I don’t want to be critical of the media, but I do sort of feel like, you know, if this were any other group of people, if these were senior business people of ASX listed companies, then you would find rear window for one, in the Australian Financial Review, going back and trawling through their previous comments about how they weren’t reliant on overseas students, and pointing out their inconsistencies. So, I do think that Jason Clare and I think the Labor Party has done the right thing in terms of saying to a lot of these universities, you really do have to justify the level and the numbers of overseas students you’re bringing in.

CONNELL: Jason, your title, former Liberal Party president New South Wales, we should say, not during the great troubles of recently, but you were quoted today, text messages warning the party, ‘hey, this pre-selection issue is going to blow up.’ And it did. Whose fault is it?

FALINSKI: Tom, I should be quite clear. I was being quoted from an email that I wrote eight, nine months ago, so it wasn’t from today. But look –

CONNELL: No, I’m saying because in the news today, sorry.

FALINSKI: Oh, in the news today, sorry, yes, of course, yeah. Look, I think this isn’t a matter of, you know, who’s to blame. This is a matter of who’s going to take responsibility to fix what’s happened here. I think there’s been a lot of ‘catastrophising’, to be honest with you. And you know, there are some people who say the Liberal Party in New South Wales shouldn’t be involved in local government. But now suddenly are the most critical of the fact that nominations were late being put in. You know, I think there’s a lot of internal nonsense going on and not a lot of constructive behaviour taking place. This was a mistake. It wasn’t a fatal mistake. We need to ensure that it never happens again.

CONNELL: Seems bit more than just a mistake, but look, I think it shows if Jason Falinski quits something, it’s hard to replace him. Pat, that was Jason’s underarm, I guess. Yours: Look, if people don’t know you’re vaguely obsessed with Oasis. So apparently, they’re getting back together. I half read this article, I must admit, I think they’re doing concerts in London. You going to head over there?

GORMAN: Well, Tom, we are seeing two big reunions this year. We have got Noel and Liam Gallagher coming back together to reform Oasis, and we’re seeing Peter Dutton a decade on from when he cut Medicare –

FALINSKI: Oh no.

GORMAN: Back in his love of cuts. Back getting into the team of chipping away at everything, and he’s snipping away at housing today.

FALINSKI: That’s terrible.

GORMAN: But look Tom –

FALINSKI: [laughs]

CONNELL: See I gave you this question because I thought you would bring some levity and there you go, Patrick. I mean –

GORMAN: [laughs]

FALINSKI: That’s terrible.

CONNELL: This was meant to be you humanising yourself to voters. You know, I think you’ve let yourself down, mate, I’ve got to say. Yeah, I’m not angry, I’m just disappointed Pat.

FALINSKI: In the words of The Good Place, “Everyone knows that’s worse”.

CONNELL: Yeah, that’s true. No, you’re fine Pat, you’re alright, mate. Patrick, Jason, I think we’re talking next week. I can’t, can’t keep ahead of my schedule anyway. Thank you. We will talk again soon, regardless.